Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post Reply
User avatar
Tribe of One
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Tribe of One »

I'm interested in others' thoughts on this:

I've rolled up Extra Arms a few times and always traded it away, because it visually wasn't where I wanted to go with a character or would have caused problems with other parts of a build (ie. a power armor pilot). But since the benefit of the cyber is exactly the same as the racial ability "Additional Action" -- which doesn't have to be an extra appendage -- why not just retrap Extra Arms in the same way? Call it "Move-by-Wire" system, to steal a name from Shadowrun, and say it boosts reflexes/nervous system to Juicer or Crazy level.

Mechanically, the way the rules are written this should be fine. The Extra Arms cybernetics (like Additional Action) doesn't explicitly carry with it any hindrances like Non-Standard Physiology or requiring the use of separate weapons to get the extra attack; however, in practice I think most people assume that it does. This may stem from the fact that both examples we have of D-Bees that have Additional Action (Grackles and Lyn-Syrial) also have Non-Standard Physiology. So, if retrapping Extra Arms to not include actual extra appendages seems like an end run to avoid NSP, perhaps a different 1-point negative quality (equivalent to a Minor Hindrance) would be appropriate? Going with the nervous system augmentation retrapping, something like a Minor Habit: Jumpy for -1 Charisma or maybe a -1 to Smarts rolls outside combat, due to distraction?

Essentially, what you end up with is a 250k, 3-strain way to get Split the Seconds on a cyber character (which is pretty much just MARS, and Glitter Boy, I guess).

Anyway, just kind of spit-balling. Thoughts?
GM Bennies: 4/7
User avatar
Freemage
Savage Senior
Posts: 1857
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Freemage »

Honestly, it's not the clash with NSP that bothers me--I have no issue with retrapping it that as hyperkinetic movement or somesuch. If anything, I'd say, add "Quirk: Eats like a horse" in order to account for the extra caloric burn that comes from that trapping. Oh, and note: if you don't have extra limbs, some options aren't available. You don't double the weapon's ROF this way, for instance (so not quite as good as Split the Seconds). Though with Quick Draw, you could shoot, drop (with a sling/lanyard dealie), draw and shoot a different gun, then keep going back and forth between the two.

But, there's another aspect, here. Extra Cyber Limbs also requires a Reinforced Frame. yes, that has its own advantages, but pre-reqs are one of the key balancing factors in the system--especially given the way Strain is handled. So long as that is maintained, I'm good with it. Maybe the RF serves to keep the character from injuring themselves from moving so fast.
GM Bennies (7th SET, Joker's Jokers): 8/8
OOC Comments
GMC Bennies:
PCs
Sir Blurre, 18th COT/New West
Gaspard Gillead, 12th AAT/Dirty Dozen
Ryder, 101st COT/Trailblazers
Serival Drumm, 24th COT
Ophelia Monk, Field Team 6
Hexx, Rising Stars SPC
Malaetheryan, Phase World/Relentless
Jaenelle, Beyond the Wall
Yeitso & Alicia Forsythe, Prestige Unlimited

Inactive/Retired/Deceased
Gorgeous George, 4th COT/Murder Hobos(Frozen)
Nomel Sagia, Nameless (Frozen)
Libertas Magicorum, 13th SET/Silent Ones(Retired)
Savant, 3rd SET/Losers(Frozen)
Other Mother, Ravenloft (Frozen)
Lance, 24th COT/Kingsdale (Retired)
Ramson Gourdaine, Phase World (Blazed)
.
User avatar
Pender Lumkiss
Diamond Patron
Diamond Patron
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

Split the seconds and extra arms are different enough that I would not recommend to treat them the same. It does nto need to be an extra arm per se, it could be a tail or some other appendage.

I am also not really in favor of allowing iconic edges to be picked up by cybernetics.

Now you want to talk about an extra action in a GB or PA I would go with clint on this where you are effectivly picking up an additional hindrance per the cybernetics write up.

http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... cs#p458839

I recently retrapped a lyn siral to a human angel. I kept the extra arms as divine grace, using the same limitations you would have for extra arms.
Field Team Six Bennies
3/6
User avatar
Tribe of One
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Tribe of One »

I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.

As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
GM Bennies: 4/7
User avatar
Pender Lumkiss
Diamond Patron
Diamond Patron
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

Tribe of One wrote:I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.

As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?

Reinforced frame is right there in the description of the cybernetics.

Extra Set of Arms (1): A second set of arms and hands can be installed on a reinforced frame, providing enormous benefits at the cost of dehumanizing the cyborg even more. This upgrade gives the character one additional non-movement action, with no multi-action penalty. (Strain 3; 250,000 credits)
Field Team Six Bennies
3/6
User avatar
Freemage
Savage Senior
Posts: 1857
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Freemage »

Tribe of One wrote:I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.

As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
Additional action doesn't let you double-down on the same action/tool combo--shooting an RoF 1 gun twice, for instance. That's a core rule, and exceptions to it are explicitly called out in pertinent text. If you have extra limbs, you can already have the weapons out and ready to go, so it's not an issue. But if you only have one 'good' hand, then using that hand for two separate actions via high-speed maneuvering is going to require you to switch out weapons in-between (which requires Quick Draw to do without a MAP). Now, if you have Ambidextrous, you could have a pistol in each hand and shoot both without a MAP, since there's no drawing involved, and no off-hand penalty. Essentially, the high-speed action variant has its own limitations that compensate for the fact that you can fit into a Glitterboy or other 'standard physiology' gear without a problem. That's the downside inherent in not getting NSP as a ride-along, which is why I wasn't particularly bothered by that specific aspect of your proposal.

As for the pre-req, yes, you absolutely CAN choose RF if you roll EA and don't have RF yet.
GM Bennies (7th SET, Joker's Jokers): 8/8
OOC Comments
GMC Bennies:
PCs
Sir Blurre, 18th COT/New West
Gaspard Gillead, 12th AAT/Dirty Dozen
Ryder, 101st COT/Trailblazers
Serival Drumm, 24th COT
Ophelia Monk, Field Team 6
Hexx, Rising Stars SPC
Malaetheryan, Phase World/Relentless
Jaenelle, Beyond the Wall
Yeitso & Alicia Forsythe, Prestige Unlimited

Inactive/Retired/Deceased
Gorgeous George, 4th COT/Murder Hobos(Frozen)
Nomel Sagia, Nameless (Frozen)
Libertas Magicorum, 13th SET/Silent Ones(Retired)
Savant, 3rd SET/Losers(Frozen)
Other Mother, Ravenloft (Frozen)
Lance, 24th COT/Kingsdale (Retired)
Ramson Gourdaine, Phase World (Blazed)
.
User avatar
Ndreare
Savage Siri
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Skagit County, Washington
Contact:

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Ndreare »

I think this is an example of using normal terms and game terms for different meaning the way Pinnacle likes to.

I think the original Extra Arms was intended as only needed the reinforcing to make support of the arms in place make sense without them falling off. Not the actual Reinforcement cybernetic mod that grants bonus t.

Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 8;
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +8 Players



Nightbane Game Master Bennies 0,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +0 ADVENTURE Reset

Legendary: Death Seekers Game Master Bennies 5,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +5 Players

Legendary: War Breakers Game Master Bennies 4,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +4 Players

,

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
User avatar
Tribe of One
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Tribe of One »

Yeah, I think Soren and Pender are both ignoring my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter. But, like I noted, the more liberal interpretation they're using actually benefits most players who wouldn't want Extra Arms, anyway.

As for Soren's point on not repeating actions ... I see that. Makes Extra Arms, retrapped or not, pretty worthless. So, back to the drawing board. I might just have to design some custom cyberware based on the Extra Action ability in SPC2, which does allow repeat uses (and costs the same as Rifts Additional Action, but oh well, gotta screw the mundanes in SR, yep, yep, we do.
GM Bennies: 4/7
User avatar
Ndreare
Savage Siri
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Skagit County, Washington
Contact:

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Ndreare »

Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
This is agree with 100%

Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 8;
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +8 Players



Nightbane Game Master Bennies 0,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +0 ADVENTURE Reset

Legendary: Death Seekers Game Master Bennies 5,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +5 Players

Legendary: War Breakers Game Master Bennies 4,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +4 Players

,

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
User avatar
Pender Lumkiss
Diamond Patron
Diamond Patron
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

RFT wrote:
Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
This is agree with 100%
So what would the reinforced frame in the extra arms be?
Field Team Six Bennies
3/6
User avatar
Ndreare
Savage Siri
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Skagit County, Washington
Contact:

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Ndreare »

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
RFT wrote:
Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
This is agree with 100%
So what would the reinforced frame in the extra arms be?
Just a generic term for a feature needed to support the arms that provides and has no mechanical benefit.

I would be like saying when referring to a car that the wheels are mounted on struts. It does not mean the wheels are mounted on heavy duty super struts for off roading. They are simple struts to keep the wheels in place and pushing away from the frame.

I think at this point both points of view have been offered and we should ask Clint for rules as intended.

Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 8;
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +8 Players



Nightbane Game Master Bennies 0,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +0 ADVENTURE Reset

Legendary: Death Seekers Game Master Bennies 5,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +5 Players

Legendary: War Breakers Game Master Bennies 4,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +4 Players

,

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
User avatar
Freemage
Savage Senior
Posts: 1857
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Freemage »

Tribe of One wrote: As for Soren's point on not repeating actions ... I see that. Makes Extra Arms, retrapped or not, pretty worthless. So, back to the drawing board. I might just have to design some custom cyberware based on the Extra Action ability in SPC2, which does allow repeat uses (and costs the same as Rifts Additional Action, but oh well, gotta screw the mundanes in SR, yep, yep, we do.
The notion that extra arms is worthless without the ability to use it to approximate Split the Seconds (are Juicers not "mundane" now?) seems kind of silly to me, since it's part of the build of two popular races--one of which is explicitly as mundane as it gets, not even able to use that fancy-schmancy cyberware you're so fond of....
GM Bennies (7th SET, Joker's Jokers): 8/8
OOC Comments
GMC Bennies:
PCs
Sir Blurre, 18th COT/New West
Gaspard Gillead, 12th AAT/Dirty Dozen
Ryder, 101st COT/Trailblazers
Serival Drumm, 24th COT
Ophelia Monk, Field Team 6
Hexx, Rising Stars SPC
Malaetheryan, Phase World/Relentless
Jaenelle, Beyond the Wall
Yeitso & Alicia Forsythe, Prestige Unlimited

Inactive/Retired/Deceased
Gorgeous George, 4th COT/Murder Hobos(Frozen)
Nomel Sagia, Nameless (Frozen)
Libertas Magicorum, 13th SET/Silent Ones(Retired)
Savant, 3rd SET/Losers(Frozen)
Other Mother, Ravenloft (Frozen)
Lance, 24th COT/Kingsdale (Retired)
Ramson Gourdaine, Phase World (Blazed)
.
User avatar
High Command
The Savage Inquisition
Posts: 1873
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:10 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by High Command »

For reference, in Palladium's cyberware, you had to have a reinforced skeleton (bionic bones, or reinforced hips, or shoulders, etc) to get extra arms. That said, it's clear that the reinforcement mentioned is a simple trapping, part of the description, not a prerequisite. They are a lot less subtle with prerequisites in cybernetics.

As for the swap out, I'd allow it Tribe, but it would cost you in terms of caloric intake - basically it'd make you eat like a juicer. Other GM's mileage may vary
Tales of the 17th SOG
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
User avatar
Tribe of One
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Tribe of One »

Freemage wrote:The notion that extra arms is worthless without the ability to use it to approximate Split the Seconds (are Juicers not "mundane" now?) seems kind of silly to me, since it's part of the build of two popular races--one of which is explicitly as mundane as it gets, not even able to use that fancy-schmancy cyberware you're so fond of....
Additional Action, the racial ability that Grackles and Lyn-Sirial get, is great, even if it requires carrying an extra weapon. With NSP (which both would require anyway, due to size or wings) it costs them 2 points, or the equivalent of an Edge. Extra Arms the cyberware sucks - it costs an Edge (usually, unless you take it as part of a MARS package Strain allowance, in which case you're losing way more than an Edge), carries a phantom NSP and 3 Strain, which could be better used on virtually anything else. And you still have to use a separate weapon. Retrapped to remove actual extra appendages and substituting something else for NSP, you can't use the same weapon twice, but can't carry any extra, so you're stuck with some sort of Quick Draw shenanigans to get an actual benefit. And still sucking up 3 Strain. It's a horrible use of Strain and an advancement, especially compared to what you can get as a racial ability (or with an AB ...).
High Command wrote:For reference, in Palladium's cyberware, you had to have a reinforced skeleton (bionic bones, or reinforced hips, or shoulders, etc) to get extra arms. That said, it's clear that the reinforcement mentioned is a simple trapping, part of the description, not a prerequisite. They are a lot less subtle with prerequisites in cybernetics.

As for the swap out, I'd allow it Tribe, but it would cost you in terms of caloric intake - basically it'd make you eat like a juicer. Other GM's mileage may vary
Yeah, caloric intake (ie. Dependency or Habit) would be one possible substitute for NSP. I was thinking in terms of Shadowrun, where really good Wired Reflexes/Move-by-Wire systems made you super jumpy -- which sounds like the Quick Flex penalty or the Adrenaline Junkie drawback you threw in for the ARES Physical Training origin.

I'm also thinking about just building a Move-by-Wire system with a reflex trigger, using SPC2 as a base (since the SPC2 version of Extra Action works like Split the Seconds). Something like Extra Action (3 pts) + Phantom AB: Superhero (2 pts) + Limitation: Can't be used for mental actions/power activation (-1) + Requires Activation (-1) + Minor Hindrance: some sort of distraction mechanic (-1). Ends up at 2 pts, equivalent to an Edge. You end up with something like Split the Seconds but additional complications (doesn't apply when surprised rounds, distractable outside combat) and still costs Strain.

If I get some time I may just put together some cyberware and other mundane-friendly toys for whenever House Rules opens back up. Fight the Powers.
GM Bennies: 4/7
User avatar
Freemage
Savage Senior
Posts: 1857
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Freemage »

1: The Additional Action Racial Ability is a flat 3 points--that's an Edge-and-a-half, no matter how you slice it. Yes, in the two canon examples, it gets paired with NSP, but that's not a requirement.

2: The restrictions placed on a character by the Extra Limbs Cybernetic enhancement are NOT the equivalent of NSP, by a long shot. Here's the breakdown:
NSP:
  • You can't fit into a Glitterboy at all.
  • Armor and Vehicles (and thus, both Power Armor and Robot Armor) cost x2 or more if acquired after start of play.
  • Salvaged Armor won't fit you at all.
Extra Limbs:
  • You can't use your additional action while piloting a Glitterboy, because those arms are pinned to your torso or retracted, depending upon design.
3: I bring up 2, because frankly, I find it bemusing that folks are focusing on the lack of capitalization of "reinforced frame", but utterly ignoring the lack of reference to any of the NSP restrictions in the same paragraphs. If the intent was to inflict the full boat of NSP problems on Cyber-limb folks, they'd be listed there, or at least poorly alluded to. They ain't, at all.

4: On the Reinforced Frame vs. reinforced frame issue, I point to the full line of the text: "A second set of arms and hands can be installed on a reinforced frame, providing enormous benefits at the cost of dehumanizing the cyborg even more." "Even more" is pretty clearly meant to mean that the cyborg has already been partially dehumanized by other cyberware. If it was possible to have Extra Limbs without any additional cybernetics, that line would make no sense whatsoever. That said, I probably would rule that both Reinforced Frame and Load Bearing Reinforcement apply to the pre-req. Hell, I'd say that if you've got Level 3 Armor Plating (needed to count as MDC), you're good, too.
GM Bennies (7th SET, Joker's Jokers): 8/8
OOC Comments
GMC Bennies:
PCs
Sir Blurre, 18th COT/New West
Gaspard Gillead, 12th AAT/Dirty Dozen
Ryder, 101st COT/Trailblazers
Serival Drumm, 24th COT
Ophelia Monk, Field Team 6
Hexx, Rising Stars SPC
Malaetheryan, Phase World/Relentless
Jaenelle, Beyond the Wall
Yeitso & Alicia Forsythe, Prestige Unlimited

Inactive/Retired/Deceased
Gorgeous George, 4th COT/Murder Hobos(Frozen)
Nomel Sagia, Nameless (Frozen)
Libertas Magicorum, 13th SET/Silent Ones(Retired)
Savant, 3rd SET/Losers(Frozen)
Other Mother, Ravenloft (Frozen)
Lance, 24th COT/Kingsdale (Retired)
Ramson Gourdaine, Phase World (Blazed)
.
User avatar
Ndreare
Savage Siri
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Skagit County, Washington
Contact:

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Ndreare »

Trying to clean up, should this be considered approved or abandoned?

Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 8;
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +8 Players



Nightbane Game Master Bennies 0,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +0 ADVENTURE Reset

Legendary: Death Seekers Game Master Bennies 5,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +5 Players

Legendary: War Breakers Game Master Bennies 4,
July 20, 2020 update
Mission: Up in The Air
  • +4 Players

,

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
User avatar
Tribe of One
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system

Post by Tribe of One »

Meh, you can archive it.
GM Bennies: 4/7
Post Reply

Return to “Archived or Abandoned Items”