Kinsentite Blades

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Beowulf85
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Kinsentite Blades

Post by Beowulf85 »

I recently awarded a player a kinsentite blade of choice. In palladium they're typically just slightly stronger than an equivalent vibro blade, typically +3 damage with some exceptions.
Should we just stick with +3 damage as a rule of thumb?

An alternate possibility is + 1 die type or +1d4, but I think those are a little more powerful as they can both ace.
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Re: Kinsentite Blades

Post by Merlaggon »

In savage worlds, a +1 is the equivalent of a die improvement. A new d4 if the equivalent of +3 on average.

Personally, I think an improved die type or at max a +2 should be added.
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Re: Kinsentite Blades

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Hello,

I agree +3 is lot.
Savaging Rifts Ideas wrote:Also be careful about adding flat “+x” bonuses to dice damage; it’s a great way to represent a particularly powerful entry in a particular category, but those flat bonuses are very powerful and should be used sparingly.
I don't see why Kinsentite has to do more damage, power creep and all that, maybe add another point or two of AP to represent how sharp it is?

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Re: Kisentite Blades

Post by Beowulf85 »

Kisentite just always did slightly more damage in Palladium, though I don't think the systems it appeared in featured AP, so that might make sense. The best chart I know of is in Heroes Unlimited - Aliens Unlimited P. 165, they're all more powerful than equivalent CS Vibro Blades (GMG P. 124). Kisentite is on Rifts Earth and is features in some of the books (for instance, Sourcebook 4 P. 124).

The vibro blades in Aliens Unlimited are even more powerful, but I tend to think that's because they are alien tech, not CS vibro blades.

*note, misspelled it, it's 'kisentite', not 'kinsentite'.
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Re: Kinsentite Blades

Post by Sayeen Gabbersleaf »

Insource book 4, pg 124, it mentions the weapons are amazingly sharp and balanced. I could see an aditional 2pts of AP and +1 to parry being enough to give a mellee weapon a kinsenite trapping.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Venatus Vinco »

    Looks like

    AP and Parry might be good approaches to use over additional damage and seems to fit with the game philosophy and the avoidance of power creep.
    Savaging Your Ideas wrote:Avoid adding more damage...Remember that other defining factors—such as Range, Rate of Fire, Armor Piercing (AP) value, etc. can help create variances between one kind of laser rifle and another.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Conrad »

    plus more difficult to damage
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    Cool, so +2 AP and +1 Parry is an acceptable standard for a kisentite counterpart then? I'm happy with that, can we make it board official?
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by High Command »

    For approval. Kisentite weaponry should not do MD without some help. But it is just as expensive as vibro-weaponry regardless. I listed options because that was the intent in HUGG (the book they are from)

    Kisentite Weaponry
    Image
    Applies only to melee weapons: Due to its hardness and density, weapons made from kisentite have increased armor penetration. Due to their relative strength and near indestructibility, they are easier to parry with.
    (May not be combined with the melee weapons from the Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide on page 92. May be modified by TW modifications.)
    • +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits
      +1 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits
      +1 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 6000 credits
      +2 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 7000 credits
      +2 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 10000 credits
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    That looks great. Validate this please. :)
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Venatus Vinco »

    High Command wrote:
    • +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits
      +1 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits
      +1 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 6000 credits
      +2 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 7000 credits
      +2 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 10000 credits
    Essentially super-tech modifications? Makes sense. If they don't do MD this is ok.

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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by High Command »

    Yeah, Kinsentite Blades definitely do not pass the walks like a tank test. Note they could parry MD weapons all day long and never be hurt. And all it takes is Greater Smite to make it MD. Or a TW mod. I could definitely see them as a preferred basis for TW weapons.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    I was going to write up an extensive post about them probably doing MD, but then I reconsidered after I re-read everything. If smite/TW modifications can strengthen them then I would assume they can also be made in to vibro weapons for non magical characters?

    Everything here looks great, and I like the idea of them being something more creative to play with/modify rather than them being more powerful on their own.

    Would prices be similar? In Queenston Harbor they are very inexpensive (2,000 to 4,500 credits), but I imagine that elsewhere they would be many times pricier as they are generally only available through/from Queenstown Harbor. Much like the other items I've put up for validation, these are rare.

    Also, if anyone wants to take a look here is the spreadsheet I wrote up comparing Palladium Kisentite to Palladium Vibro Blades.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Pender Lumkiss »

    So Kinsentite Long Sword

    Str+d8, 8lbs, AP2 +1 Parry-Cost 3000 creds.

    Maybe just do the same as the sci-fi companion and multiply cost by 10.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    Pender Lumkiss wrote:So Kinsentite Long Sword

    Str+d8, 8lbs, AP2 +1 Parry-Cost 3000 creds.

    Maybe just do the same as the sci-fi companion and multiply cost by 10.
    I have the companion but am not thoroughly familiar with it. Can you tell me what you're referencing?
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Pender Lumkiss »

    Beowulf85 wrote:
    Pender Lumkiss wrote:So Kinsentite Long Sword

    Str+d8, 8lbs, AP2 +1 Parry-Cost 3000 creds.

    Maybe just do the same as the sci-fi companion and multiply cost by 10.
    I have the companion but am not thoroughly familiar with it. Can you tell me what you're referencing?
    I believe in the gear section it says you can use items from the sci-fi companion at 10x the cost.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by High Command »

    Kinsentite is not well suited to being made vibro because of its rigidity. It is well suited to being enchanted though. I don't think Kinsentite NEEDS to be MD either. It's impossible to break very tough, but that doesn't mean that a normal person can use it to cut through tank armor. A normal person CAN use a Chain or Vibro weapon, or an Impact Hammer to bust through a tank armor all day long though, assuming they could use them effectively. In Aliens Unlimited, where the "metal" was first introduced, it has no special ability to bust through A.R. so I think the choice to make them M.D. in Rifts was wrong.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    High Command wrote:Kinsentite is not well suited to being made vibro because of its rigidity. It is well suited to being enchanted though. I don't think Kinsentite NEEDS to be MD either. It's impossible to break very tough, but that doesn't mean that a normal person can use it to cut through tank armor. A normal person CAN use a Chain or Vibro weapon, or an Impact Hammer to bust through a tank armor all day long though, assuming they could use them effectively. In Aliens Unlimited, where the "metal" was first introduced, it has no special ability to bust through A.R. so I think the choice to make them M.D. in Rifts was wrong.
    Thinking about it that actually makes a lot of sense. I would argue that the material itself is mega damage, but that doesn't mean you can deal MD with it (unless your normal physical attacks are already MD).
    Beating on a tank with a mega damage hammer won't do anything to the tank because it's relying on the character's own strength for the damage, but vibro and chain weapons have a way of powering up their own attacks so characters with normal strength can use them to do mega damage.
    Kisentite is basically just a super strong metal/alloy/rock that can make super sharp blades, but without the necessary strength a character can't force a blade through metal, regardless of how strong or sharp the blade is. That being said, I would think that creatures who can naturally deal mega damage with their unarmed melee attacks would be able to do mega damage with these blades. Does that make sense?
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by High Command »

    Well sure, but that's because their strength, and not the weapon, has the MD quality.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Corrigon »

    basically it could add a little bit of extra damage and have the trapping of indestructible, but does not do MD
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    High Command wrote:For approval. Kisentite weaponry should not do MD without some help.* But it is just as expensive as vibro-weaponry regardless. I listed options because that was the intent in HUGG (the book they are from)

    Kisentite Weaponry
    Image
    Applies only to melee weapons: Due to its hardness and density, weapons made from kisentite have increased armor penetration. Due to their relative strength and near indestructibility, they are easier to parry with.
    (May not be combined with the melee weapons from the Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide on page 92. May be modified by TW modifications.)
    • +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits **
      +1 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 3000 credits **
      +1 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 6000 credits **
      +2 AP = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 7000 credits **
      +2 AP, +1 Parry = Standard Melee Weapon Cost + 10000 credits**
    *May also do MD if the character wielding the blade is capable of dealing MD with an unarmed melee attack.
    **More expensive when outside Queenston Harbor, which is the only known source for these blades on Rifts Earth. Queenston Harbor soldiers get a heavily discounted price, 2,000 credits for bayonets and 4,000 credits for swords of the highest quality available. Standard Melee Weapon Costs found in SWD and SFC.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by High Command »

    Well if you want to make them even more expensive. Personally I thought just paying for the Kinsentite mod was expensive enough. And by weapon, I meant the ones out of SWD and SFC. NOT TLPG.
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    Re: Kinsentite Blades

    Post by Beowulf85 »

    High Command wrote:Well if you want to make them even more expensive. Personally I thought just paying for the Kinsentite mod was expensive enough. And by weapon, I meant the ones out of SWD and SFC. NOT TLPG.
    Excellent, we'll go with those prices. I'll edit my proposal. I take it you approve because you wrote it up. As long as no one disapproves we'll get it moved over in a few days.
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